afraid of people in Springer behaviour Forum

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afraid of people

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caseysmum	afraid of people	Lead	[-]
Posts: 74 Mar 23 12 4:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Well, Henry WSS is 17 months old now and we are mostly all getting on just great. We have 3 Irish Setters as well as him, 2 spayed bitches 11 and 9, and one neutered male 7 years. One cat LOVES Henry and is always rubbing against him (its a cat thing!) which he loves. The other HATES him, he doesnt get that and is forever trying to tell her he loves her too. So all is good.... BUT ... he is afraid of anybody he doesnt know. He loves us, and my daughters and grandchildren who visit often. Also my DIL who visits occasionally and stays for a few days. He is afraid of my son who does the same. We think the difference is because she listened when we told her to ignore him and eventually he came round, though we have to go through the performance (shortened version) every morning when she gets up. My son, though , doesnt listen and keeps clicking his fingers, looking and smiling, you know, how you do when saying hello and Henry wont go near him. Thats it. Henry is afraid of everyone else. We took him clicker training when he was 5 months old or so, but he was too scared to get much "training" out of it. We thought it was fear of strange places (it was held in a barn). They said try to keep taking him to different places so we went to the local park, town market, Pets at Home etc, until I could not take it any more. If we walked there he was skulking along between our legs, tail under, terrified someone would stop and say hello, if we went by car, he crouched at the back of the dog cage, clearly trying to get his courage up then slunk out of the car like we were going to our doom. We tried with and without the other dogs, or with 1 of the others, all of whom are fine with people (ex showdogs) He was supposed to improve gradually and the "dog people" (various) who we asked about it said to persevere. After about 6 weeks plus of this I thought "he is no better than when we started" and we stopped. We do know now that it isnt places that he is afraid of, its people. He isnt bothered by traffic, noise, other dogs, just people. I cant take him down the road because he thinks people might see him there ( we take them out in the car to the fields/beach etc). In hindsight I wish we had walked him to exciting places when he was new to us. But here is where we are. Any ideas?
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8213368		#1	[-]
Springaholic Posts: 308 Mar 23 12 6:51 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Are you tense and anxious when you are around strange people with him? Dizzy firmly believes in stranger danger and whilst in one respect it's a good thing as she would be very difficult to grab and steal, I do wish she was a little more relaxed...
Harvey123		#2	[-]
Extreme Springaholic Posts: 1095 Mar 23 12 10:09 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I am smiling to myself as you deal with this very real and difficult problem because I treat humans with social phobia If only he could talk eh! I will leave you in the capable hands of the canine psychologists amongst us but would add that Dizzy's mum is right to be thinking about your response too - they pick up on it.... good luck Linda and Mr Winnie
penderyn		#3	[-]
Posts: 5594 Mar 24 12 12:19 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'll send Riley to stay....he LURVES people, everyone, anyone, more so special people...he could demonstrate greetings....squeeeeeeeeeel, going to places, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelet me get in there....................he has a friend lulu, a collie, who tells him how to behave on walks, not to run off, come here, dont go there, ive told you about this before, dont go in the river....could it be that something like this might help???
MizD		#4	[-]
Springaholic Posts: 685 Mar 24 12 1:22 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	You need to take your son to obedience classes My advice is ( which worked a treat for my friends dogs Shane a looming great big wooss of an Afghan) What my friend did anytime someone new came into the house, was always have a treat for Shane. Instead of approaching, the just threw the treat and then ignored him. Now this tooks months, but slowly he came round and his fear abated. My friend took treats every where, and if she met a friend or even a neighbour while out, she gave them a treat for Shane. Now it's got to the stage when she is out and people stop to chat, he is nudging their leg for his treat. Maybe this might work for your dog, but everyone has to get on board. Dorothy
SummerSue		#5	[-]
Extreme Springaholic Posts: 1958 Mar 24 12 8:55 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Summer has always loved people and has a bad habit of running up to eveyone while we are out and wriggling up to them, tail wagging and rolling on her back. Hers was a fear of other dogs so I constantly taught her to mix, sometimes she was frightened and bolted but now she's very good. If she is a bit scared, usually a bigger dog than her) she will not bolt but come and sit by me. Don't know if this may help by doing the same with human contact? \| Summer born June 2010. RIP Whisper 1993 - 2005 RIP Snoopy - 1992 - 2008 RIP Shandy 2005 - 2010 All at Rainbow Bridge.
PsychoJo		#6	[-]
Extreme Springaholic Posts: 8253 Mar 24 12 11:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Not being a professional of any sort I can only share what worked with my very scared Sam when he first arrived with me back in 1999, aged approx 16months! He had been mistreated, I believe from his responses to people, men mostly, objects and situations. He was terrified, displaying levels of fear from shying away and hiding, to weeing or most severely, throwing himself on the floor and yelping with fear. The first thing to say is that whatever you choose to do - it WILL take a long time and needs consistency, with Sam it was probably about 18months for the initial changes, although we maintained the rules for a long time after this and he continued to show progress for years!! (I think it was 5 or 6 years when he ventured into the same room as the hoover when it was on!!) Our Rules were: Nobody was allowed to go to Sam to greet him - anywhere. He HAD to go to them. Nobody EVER went to him in his "safe place" - under the bed. No-one could look at him - especially not catch his eye or smile (I can only think that a smile is some sort threat in "dog language" ..... as I typed that the picture of a dog "warning" by baring its teeth popped into my mind, I wonder if that is anything connected? ..... ) I never fussed him when he was scared - Sam saw a fuss or cuddle as a reward for his fear not as the reassurance I would intend it to be. When I greeted people I behaved perfectly normally, bright voice (although not too loud Sam was noise sensitive too ) And I always had treats in my pocket. When anyone came to the house and was going to be invited in they were given treats. (Nothing too big, but usually tasty - tiny pieces of cooked dry liver or cheese, sausage ...... ) These treats were kept until Sam ventured over to the visitor, then the visitor dropped a treat - still not looking at him. They could only hand feed the treat when Sam nudged them and a gentle stroke on the chest - never the top of his head (he would flinch and run ) - but again no eye contact. This continued for every one that came to the house for probably about 2 years. For outside life; I was very lucky to belong to fun training class that had fab facilities and I was able to give every one in the class some treats and then walk to an area we didn't train in and wander about amongst the people - who were strolling about and chatting. Nice bright "happy voice" talking and a good upbeat pace, just ignoring everyone - but as we walked around people a treat got dropped. This seemed to eventually take his focus away from the "scary people" and become more of a treasure hunt for him! Again once he was less stressed by that we did it again with maybe the odd person stopping to chat and a treat was dropped. If he ventured out from behind me to get it then that was his reward for venturing out, if he didn't we walked the other way so he wasn't rewarded for his fear. But he was never greeted .... especially not by someone standing up and leaning over him!!!! We also learnt the "Watch" command - this is soooo useful in many situations! Just to get his focus on me and away from whatever else. There are several forum members who have met my Eejit Sam-Am over the years (he is nearly 14 now ) and I would like to think that they don't recognise him from my description above - so it really does work but it isn't going to work within weeks and you have to be totally consistent. A small lapse could set back your progress! I would say that if your little ones fears are this extreme have you consulted a behaviourist or mentioned it to the vet? I do stress that all of the above is only our experience and not meant as "advice" per se. ... And Millie the Minx too!!!!! "Dogs are not our whole lives, but they make our lives whole" - Roger Carras "The more I see of people, the more I love my dog" - Sonny Burgess Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once! "Most breeds have owners - but Springers have STAFF!"
caseysmum		#7	[-]
Posts: 74 Mar 24 12 12:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks all for some good advice. I havent seen a behaviourist as the only ones I know of around here are the clicker training ladies we took him to before. They were very good, but the advice didnt work ( or maybe I couldnt bring myself to follow it for long enough?) He wasnt even a tiny bit better after quite a few weeks, and it seems so wrong to bring him to the level of fear when he was wetting himself and couldnt even sniff at a treat. Hes better now though, maturity I suppose. I was hoping for miracles when he started to cock his leg (testosterone and all that) and it did seem to help a bit, but still he cowers when anyone comes in, until he is sure they are people he knows and likes. I cant take him to the playing field down the road to start doing training retrieving as he is too scared people might come. He likes retrieving at home / in the garden but now needs to take it elsewhere and we need more space. He can usually do a bit on the beach (VERY big and empty beach) but will bark if somebody says hello to us and keeps well away. Dogs are fine , he loves them big or small, but not their owners!! Treats were hopeless when we tried them before, too scared, but now hes older maybe would be worth a go again? I like the idea of throwing treats if he is near strangers and he gets rewarded if he goes out to get them. Might be able to arrange something like that. Spoke to 2 different vets in the surgery we go to when he had his boosters and when he had a "thing " in his ear ( nothing serious and gone now - worried parents!!). They were VERY gentle and patient with him and gave advice along the lines of "maybe hes just like that - as long as hes happy and confident with you" - which he is, though his life is so limited. Would be happy to borrow Riley ( but you might have a fight to get him back!! ) but I have one of those ahready ( but a Setter!!) and Henry just thinks Isaac is WRONG AND STUPID!!! Will try treating him again, thanks for all your advice and support.
Linda and Mike		#8	[-]
Extreme Springaholic Posts: 3099 Mar 24 12 1:29 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	We have this problem with Luke and have found that it is best to let him make the moves and ask people not to force him to go to them. He will always go to someone with food though and that is a good way of getting him to know people.
sandra		#9	[-]
Extreme Springaholic Posts: 1849 Mar 26 12 12:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have one like that. he will only go to 7 people, all family. If someone comes to the house he doesnt know he goes under the table or behind my legs. He was totally unsocialized when we got him at 12 weeks and this has moulded him for life. I dont try to get him to go to people, I tell people to ignore him as trying to talk/stroke him stresses him out. On a walk he is better but wouldnt let anyone stroke him but he is more relaxed as he knows he can get away. The vet visits are a nightmare but my vet is brilliant and will often treat him in the car park as he likes the space around him! All in all he is a very happy dog and it is just the way he is. He can manage to go on shoots as he only has his job to do on his mind, he goes to my parents when we go away and I know no one would ever get close enough to nick him! Rolo and Ollie You think dogs will not be in heaven? I tell you, they will be there long before any of us. ~Robert Louis Stevenson
valb		#10	[-]
Posts: 234 Mar 26 12 4:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The approach I often use when dogs are fearful of something are to ensure the dog is at their critical distance they are comfortable being from the scarey thing. Reward them for being calm and also for looking at the scarey person/object. The idea is to keep them calm to reduce the emotional response. Gradually reduce the distance being really mindful of the dog's body language so their stress levels don't start to rise. Move away if they start to get worried again. I'd keep dropping treats in front of them. Scarey person = chicken. I wouldn't ask other people to throw or feed treats at this time. It's about trying to change the association and if you can rope other people into the process so you can control them, it's even better. Eventually the other person can also deliver treats but to start with I'd also have them drop treats so they are delivered from the sky. I just took my scaredy dog to a park when it wasn't that busy and sat on a bench with him rewarding him for being calm and looking at people (while calm). Once they are more settled I'll ask them to work a bit harder. Look at a few people for a treat, be closer, treat at variable intervals etc. Teaching really good "watch me" or sit can also be helpful for the unexpected events where someone does approach. I've also used the "my dog has a skin condition" to keep people from approaching One thing that can work well is people giving the dog a treat when he/she initiates contact but occasionally if dogs are very food orientated, they will take the treat even if they are still scared so may grab and run or react if they feel they have got too close.
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caseysmum		#11	[-]
Posts: 74 Mar 30 12 8:09 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	well I tried treats again but as always hes so scared he isnt interested even in liver cake or cheese. I am starting to train a "Look at me", when we are alone, see if that will help. He is better sometimes, like this evening my brother & sis in law came and he got close enough (while hiding under the table) to sniff their knees - but VERY quickly!! They ignored him as requested and fussed the other dogs instead. He eventually got brave enough to take a pigs ear to chew in his bed, as far away as he could BUT still in the same room. And I just thought about it, he could have bogged off into the kitchen if he wanted to. So maybe some progress. Now a question. We were at the beach last Sat and he barked at a man walking the other way. Should we encourage this as it shows hes getting braver, willing to draw attention to himself, though not the right sort of attention, or should we discourage it as he might scare someone and might escalate to growling/threatening? He has never shown any signs of aggression, but I am aware he might get fear aggressive if pushed, so dont want to push him! I think I might need to try a behaviourist, are they very expensive?Would I have to go to the vet first? --- And would they train my son as well??
valb		#12	[-]
Posts: 234 Apr 1 12 12:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If he's too scared to eat he's too close to the thing he's scared of. He also won't learn anything as his stress levels will be too high. It sounds as though you are making some progress though if he's comfortable chewing a pigs ear in his bed and your brother and sister in law are doing a grand job. I personally wouldn't encourage barking at someone walking the other way. If the person is walking away from them, then the association may be I bark, scarey thing goes away so it becomes reinforcing plus people are particularly sensitive about what their perceive as "agression" these days. With scaredy dogs it can be really hard to control the environment when it is really important to reward and reinforce the calm behaviour before it begins to escalate (this needs the owner to be very attentive to the subtle signs from the dog). In this area (Glasgow/Ayrshire) there is a grumpy dogs class which is specifically for dogs which are reactive to people or other dogs. They work in a controlled environment to begin with and amazingly, many of the people who attended have set up their own informal dog walking group as the dogs have come on so well. In fact many of them went on a walk through the town last Thursday night and they were all fab. None of their owners would have thought this possible a few months ago. Is there anything like that in your area? TTouch can be great for anxious dogs. When dogs are anxious (like people) their muscles get tense which affects their posture. This tension pattern becomes "normal" and as posture and behavior are so linked by changing the posture you can help the dog relax and relaxed dogs are more able to learn better choices in their behaviour. TTouch uses gentle bodywork (hands on massage type contact) and leading exercises. It's easy to learn and can make a big difference. Using a thundershirt or T-shirt can also help dogs feel more secure. There's a practitioner listing at http://www.ttouchtteam.com/CAPrac.html. This list consists of qualified practitioners but there are also people in training who are often looking for case studies as part of their qualification so it may be worth contacting the office at Tilley Farm to see if there is anyone near you. The TTouch practitioners and trainees are often experienced dog trainers as well. Trainees do not charge for case histories. Practitioners do but many try to keep the costs down so it's accessible. It does sound as though a behaviourist will be helpful as it's hard to offer advice without meeting the dog. Obviously with a fearful dog, it's really important not to use aversive techniques especially as you are already aware that his first response is flight and if this isn't an option, fight might be his next choice. Some behaviourists will only see dogs via a vet referral, others will see dogs but will ask that the dog is seen by a vet first to rule out any medical/physical issues. Of course there is the big debate on where training ends and behaviour modification begins as many dog trainers will also work with behaviour issues. Perhaps if you say where you are in the country, someone can recommend someone local to you. In terms of cost, it may also depend on where you are in the country. I charge £60 for a 2-2.5 hour session but I know of people charging £250 locally. I'm not sure how many also train children Good luck
caseysmum		#13	[-]
Posts: 74 Apr 1 12 4:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thank you for the reply. I thought barking wasnt really to be encouraged, but thought it "sort of" means he is less worried about drawing attention to himself (?). Which is good (????). I put him on a lead today when approaching 4 lads with scrambler bikes. they are known to me and pretty "dog friendly" but Henry was starting to harrumph. He didnt bark once he was on lead, but was tense. He relaxed once we were past the boys, he watches the other dogs go and say hello but doesnt seem to feel reassured at all that they are confident. I try to call hello and talk about the weather or something in a friendly voice, dont know if that helps Think Ive got a reputation for being weather obsessed!!. How do people manage in countries where the weather is less unpredictable? We are in West Wales and I think i might try contacting the clicker ladies we went to when we first had him. They are APDT trainers. Ive heard of TTouch but dont know much about it. Will Google!! There arent any near us on the site you linked, though there is 1 in Cardiff, about 1 hour away. Would love a grumpy dogs class here!! Maybe my bro & sis in law could come regularly to ignore Henry !!! Oh and the child needing training (my son) is 33 this year and has a son of his own!! Might be too late for him - I blame the parents!!
penderyn		#14	[-]
Posts: 5594 Apr 3 12 10:45 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	How far into west wales are you as I was going to go on a T Touch sunday session near shrewsbury 18months ago by people who do it free lance..I didnt get there as it ws in outside barns in nov and wld have been too cold for my mother,,,id booked it before realizing it was in stone barns . Im up there during april I'll find out where the T touch people are and let you know...willpm you if I can find out beforehand.....
valb		#15	[-]
Posts: 234 Apr 7 12 6:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Meant to mention before that Patricia McConnell has a good wee booklet called the Cautious Canine which you might find useful.
caseysmum		#16	[-]
Posts: 74 Apr 8 12 12:54 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for that. I will try & find it. Id be interested to find out more about ttouch though cant see how it would help Henry directly. He is scared only when out but cant really do massagey things when walking down the street. . We live in Carmarthenshire so quite a way into Wales. I took him for a walk this am with cheese at the ready. He was happy to have cheese in the front garden, though wary in case someone walked past. out in the street I kept checking with cheese & he would take it to about 50 yards, gradually getting more wary all the time. Then there were people in the distance and he was uninterested in cheese. So we came home. He wasnt interested in cheese until I threw a piece into the open front door when I took his lead off. (He was going into the house anyway - try keeping him out!) I thought Id try this & see if any improvement. Maybe just 10 yards down the street so he can just think about cheese (or liver cake/chicken etc) Thatll give me a "Target" to measure any progress against ( 15 yards - 20 etc) Does that sound sensible? Off to find the Cautious canine booklet. Thanks for all the help and ideas..
valb		#17	[-]
Posts: 234 Apr 9 12 12:56 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	When dogs get anxious frequently, this is reflected in their body. So when a dog or person gets stressed, their muscles tighten as their body prepares for fear, flight, fight. Dogs, and people, hold tension in their bodies in different ways but commonly, they are not comfortable being handled around the hind quarters and/or their feet/eartips can be quite cold. Some dogs are very polite and will display subtle signs like looking away or licking their lips when you touch them in this area but some are more obvious. A common reaction when a dog holds tension in their quarters is to sit down or roll over "for a tummy tickle" as this deflects attention from this area but you can get grumbling or walking away. This tension can become "normal" for them. TTouch identifies these tension patterns and helps to release the tightness in the muscles. As the dog becomes more physically relaxed, they become better able to cope. It's a bit like having an almost boiling pot of water. If the temperature is already high, it doesn't take long to start boiling but if the temperature is low, it will take much longer and may not boil at all with the same amount of additional heat. So, if a dog is more generally relaxed, it will take more for them to react than if they are already in a high state of arousal. Does that make sense? Also, if you practice the TTouch at home when the dog is more relaxed anyway, the same type of touch can often elicit feelings or relaxation outside. When my GSD got a bad fright in a dog training class because one of the other dogs has a citronella collar on to stop it barking (it didn't), she beame fearful of people, other dogs and doorways. I did lots of ear slides at home as she loved them and found that when she got anxious outside if I just stopped and did 30 seconds or so of ear slides, she would start to relax a bit was much more able to cope. Over time she became confident again but it did take months. I also rewarded her for being calm. It is hard though when you also start to become anxious as you anticipate what might happen. One other thing...pressure on the neck can also trigger reactivity so walking them in a harness, particularly with 2 points of contact can be really helpful. It also allows you more manouverability as you can influence two parts of the body rather than one. I think Janet Findlay is your nearest TTouch practitioner and is very good. I know she runs workshops although these will be too stressful for Henry, I suspect. You can often attend as an observer though to find out more.
penderyn		#18	[-]
Posts: 5594 Apr 9 12 1:57 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think Janet Findlay was the lady who came to shropshire...I'll check next week when Im up there. Ive got farmer friends in Lampeter, used to be over there all the time, but not for ages now, too grumpy him not me!!!
penderyn		#19	[-]
Posts: 5594 Apr 9 12 4:02 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hi just had a look dont know if any of this is helpful... 1. A couple of years ago Katiekoo and Barking Mad- Nikki went on a residential Tellington Touch course in or near Bristol....... 2. TT Team T Touch, Tilley Farm, Farmborough near Bath Somerset BA2OAB 01761 471182. tHINK THIS IS THE HQ for TT 3.Natural Animal Centre, Trawsmawr, Nr Carmarthen SA33 6ND 0870 991 333 Bach Flower Remedy e mail natural@globalnet.co.uk 4. Naked Dragon Caroline Griffith Ceridwen retreat centre, Penybanc Farm. Velindre, Carms.SA445XE 07980933702 SEPT10-13TH NEXT RETREAT
caseysmum		#20	[-]
Posts: 74 Apr 15 12 5:39 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Right. Well Ive read "the Cautious Canine", very interesting. I havent done anything on the ttouch front yet, but some of those listed arent that far away. Ive not been doing what I said, Ive been training Henry in the front garden. We have a small garden with 2 cars parked in it & lawn and the street runs along it, with a short wall, maybe waist height. Never used it for the dogs, too small & insecure, but good for Henry. Anyway, Ive practiced "look at me", sit/stay, & "fetch" (finding bits of ham/ pork luncheon meat/cheese/etc) all on the lead. After 5 days I think theres some improvement. I can now put ham ON THE WALL and he will get it off on command!!! Also a man walked his 2 little dogs past the gate and he looked but didnt take more than a second before looking for a treat again!! (Henry, not the man!! ) AND we walked on the pavement and he took a bit of ham from NEXT DOORS WALL!! OK only a few feet away from our gate but still. He then decided this was getting a bit scary so I called it a day with another piece of ham in our garden again. I plan to keep doing this as long as I see some improvement. Its doing wonders for his sit/stay/search and look at me anyway!!
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