Growling - Really Stupid Question :o( in Springer behaviour Forum

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Growling - Really Stupid Question :o(

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maria1968

Growling - Really Stupid Question :o(

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Posts: 32

Mar 25 12 5:06 PM

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My Coco (10m) ocassionally 'growls' when mucking about with the kids. She is confident that she knows her toys won't be taken from her (or if it does it's a throw/fetch game iyswim), doesn't growl when eating food or touched when eating food. She loves mucking about with my two kids (9 and 5).

I have always told them that it is simply her enjoying the game. Am I right?

When we leave her alone with her toy (i.e. not taking/pulling it), she will come up to me/kids to play so I really don't think she's worried but just that she is enjoying the fun of it all.

Please can someone tell me if I'm right or wrong?

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murphysgirl

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Mar 25 12 5:55 PM

Hard to say without more info. You have to look at the whole picture, eye contact, tail carriage. If the body language says play the growl probably is a play one. If the body language says back off then the growl is serious.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, sorry

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and Jasper the cat.

SummerSue

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Mar 25 12 6:41 PM

mm tricky this one. Summer will growl when play tug with a rope toy. Makes funny deep throated grunting noises for attn. which some people may interpret as a growl but it is a way of expressing herself when she wants something, usually to go outside. Hope you get some positive answers.

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Sir Freddy

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Mar 25 12 6:44 PM

My three will all growl in play but as Sue says it is only cos I know them and can read them that I am confident to not worry. Equally they may all growl for other reasons and I never ignore that growl.

A growl in its purest form is a warning the dog is unhappy/uncomfortable with a situation for any number of reasons. I always take heed although with my two males they will sometimes try on a growl to get out of stuff like grooming and are told to "man up" but my girl I would always heed if she growled at me as she would only do it for a reason that could mean pain/illness etc

TBH with kids I would advise them to stop doing whatever they are doing as while it quite possibly is play based it may be a warning. Whatever reason don't tell the dog off for growling as it is there to give a clue the dog is not chilled and without the warning accidents can happen.

Doggy vocalisation is fascinating, the three brits sound like they are murdering each other sometimes when in reality they are having a good romp.

Sue, Chase, Hope & Ferdi (Naughty Brittany's)

Never forgetting the ones who have 'left'
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penderyn

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Posts: 5594

Mar 25 12 7:29 PM

WELL SPEAKING AS ONE WHO HAS SPECIFICALLY TAKEN ON 2 BITEYS OF CHILDREN I wouldnt risk anything because , if the worst came to the worst, you wont be getting rid of your children and you have taken a good route by asking for advice.
Lots of people on here have biteys and have learned to manage them but lots of dogs have become rescues because of the children.
The growlies may be play but its best to have specific rules in place so there are no risks ie are the children squeeling and shouting in fun, pulling on the toys, taking them from dog bed...whose toys are they childrens or doggy toys.
Try and work some simple games for doggy play, so you can pre empt any potential occurrances as they all grow up ....just in case.
Riley came froma family of five children under 8 and when he arrived he was the replica of a shouty excited child and apparentlly they went into his bed and nicked his toys and its thought he may have nipped, who knows, he was a 'hand in', but nearly 2 yrs on he is still very growly in his bed. Skuipper bit a child because he was in pain but became the subject of a court case in scotland and was on death row in scotland and it was months before he was reprieved.
Dont risk that lovely relationship that you have achieved as a family

spaniel fan

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Mar 25 12 9:28 PM

QUOTE (penderyn @ March 25, 2012 07:29 pm)

WELL SPEAKING AS ONE WHO HAS SPECIFICALLY TAKEN ON 2 BITEYS OF CHILDREN I wouldnt risk anything because , if the worst came to the worst, you wont be getting rid of your children and you have taken a good route by asking for advice.
Lots of people on here have biteys and have learned to manage them but lots of dogs have become rescues because of the children.
The growlies may be play but its best to have specific rules in place so there are no risks ie are the children squeeling and shouting in fun, pulling on the toys, taking them from dog bed...whose toys are they childrens or doggy toys.
Try and work some simple games for doggy play, so you can pre empt any potential occurrances as they all grow up ....just in case.
Riley came froma family of five children under 8 and when he arrived he was the replica of a shouty excited child and apparentlly they went into his bed and nicked his toys and its thought he may have nipped, who knows, he was a 'hand in', but nearly 2 yrs on he is still very growly in his bed. Skuipper bit a child because he was in pain but became the subject of a court case in scotland and was on death row in scotland and it was months before he was reprieved.
Dont risk that lovely relationship that you have achieved as a family

a great post.

To err on the side of caution I would make sure the fun stops as soon as the growl comes out. If you can get the kids (I know they are only young) to say nothing and walk away the second they hear the growl might be worth a try

Harvey123

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Mar 25 12 10:09 PM

I echo what has been said. As a child (8 yrs) from a home that always had dogs I was so confident that "dogs liked me" that I hugged the wrong one belonging to someone else and was subjected to a a full bite of the face and was shaken like a rat by a Rhodesian Ridgeback. Not very nice for a little girl to grow up with - hundreds and hundreds of stitches over the nose, eye, cheek and neck.

I was in hospital for months at a time over several years to repair the damage all because I was overconfident and was not being supervised.

Strangely, I love dogs and it never put me off them and I have had some big breeds over the years, GSD's and Akita. When I had my own children, I ensured that I taught them both a healthy respect for DOG and HUMAN.

They need their own space, they need quiet time and they (dogs) are not toys. Playtime with dogs was always supervised. As much as we love them and yes Win sleeps on my bed so I am a softy too - they are not people and they have their own language that we have only just begun to understand.

It's too late once it has happened so follow the advice of monitoring play times; when the dog is overexcited, STOP the games, divert their attention, allow them quiet times in their own place with their own toys around them.

Not wishing to lecture....I just remember what it was like for me and how hard I worked to make sure that my own children would be safe and not go through a similar experience. Good luck

emz

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Mar 26 12 11:32 AM

Bramble play growls and it is a very different growl to when it is a warning growl, those are reserved for when he is hurt and the OH goes to touch the sore bit! His body language is completely different with the two different growls too, so easy to spot.

I don't encourage the play growling though and will stop the game if it gets too much as some people think he really is about to attack when he does it, even though the only thing he would do is lick someone to death. He only play growls when it is tug-of-war games and his tail is frantically wagging at the same time.

I was brought up with dogs and have a healthy respect for them. I think I would make sure the kids are supervised whenever with Coco and if the growling starts, playful or otherwise, get them to stop playing and walk away. If it is play-growling Coco will soon learn that growling means the end of fun, but if it is something else, then they are moving away and letting Coco have her own space.

Heather P

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Mar 26 12 12:16 PM

Jack (and Woody before him) is very growly in play but now he's older doesn't tend to play much with the kids (nieces and nephews), Bella plays endlessly but never growls at them even if they do something that she would growl at me for

(maybe I should get them to sort out her anal gland problem

). Even though Jack and Woody growled (in play) I would have trusted them 100% with the kids but more importantly I trust my nephews and nieces to never do anything to hurt the dogs.

Something I would suggest you do is make sure you children understand that a growl is not always playful, you don't want to make them scared of of your dog but they need to learn to respect a growl.

My nephews have been brought up with my dogs and their own and both Woody and Jack growled when playing (or Jack when he has a chew), one of their own dogs is also a growler, not in play but if he is scared he will just wander around sounding like a ferocious beast. He is scared of the dark, fireworks, thunder, airplanes (they live on airbases!) so spends a lot of his time growling. But he too is trustworthy with the kids. The problem is that my two nephews don't really respect a growl as they have grown up with friendly but growly dogs. My sister has tried to educate them but they are so used to it that she is always worried that they will approach the wrong dog and if it growls won't move away.

Heather
& Jack & Bella (my supurb Springers)
& Ginger & Kitty (my perfect pussy cats)
& Andy (OH)

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South Yorkshire English Springer Spaniel Rescue

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esslouis

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Mar 27 12 3:40 AM

hi louis is a growler and a biter but and this is a big BUT i trust him with my neice as long as they are supervised and the rules are in place. the rules are that when he goes to his bed he is not to be disturbed and if she does she goes on the naughty step!! louis does love her and would never hurt her intentionally but the rules are there to prevent anything occurring. louis growls and grunts when he is really enjoying his tummy rub and massage and does sound like he is going to kill me but i do no the difference between his enjoying growl and his not enjoying growl. sorry going around the houses but its hard to explain. i have also been bitten by two dogs when i was young - one was a Samoyed who i asked if i could stroke the dog and was told yes - the dog than just turned and started to bite my arm and backside no provacation at all. i still have the scars on my backside and arm to this day. the second was a lab that chased me and jumped on my back breaking my arm in the process. apperantly he was being playful!! my personal thing would be if the dog starts growling stop the kids playing with the dog. jackie and louis

You don't own a springer - a springer owns you....your bed, your wallet, your leftovers.....etc etc

penderyn

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Mar 27 12 11:28 AM

just to add that sadly about 30 years ago 2 lots of friends had dogs, one a cocker and one a feisty long lkegged terrier type. then about four years after having the dog, they both had children and about 2 years after having children the dogs bit the children and the dogs were both pts...sadly this happened in those days and neither family said anything, just quietly carried out the task, whereas if they had said I would have had both dogs as I knew them both so well. I was devastated.
Situations can become unpredictable, in any kind of joyfullness ie yesterday my friend stopped in her car to say hello to riley, not me , riley

as she said she hadnt seen him for ages (3 days!!!

) and in the joyfull squirming wiggling greeting she trod on his tail by mistake and he growled nd went ow!!!! and then carried on with the greeting, but a child would have been lower down, nearer his face, he wouldnt have meant anything, but he could have reacted and for a child that may not have been handleable

Just heed the advice here and put in safety nets as it were....have a look at Daisy Mae's mummy's history and fantastic experiences of dealing with Daisy Mae a year ago, sarah will tell you what she went through and what she did with daisy and the children

goodsie luck we are not scaremongering, but you asked and that means you had a little wobble of concern so very welll done for taking it on

angell

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Mar 27 12 10:41 PM

I can clearly remember my dad telling us "If that dog bites anybody, I'll put her to sleep!" My dad meant it and it was said when us kids were tormenting the dog. About a month later, I was tormenting Ladybug (we were evil kids) with a toy and she bit me on the nose. I was so upset (knowing the consequences) I stayed in my room hugging her and crying quietly till it stopped bleeding. I quit tormenting her. Nobody ever knew.

Never allow kids alone with dogs. And if the dog growls, teach people to respect the dogs request to be left alone. By the time a dog growls, we have ignored many requests to be left alone.

So much we have learned in 50 years!!

I don't know what I would have done if I couldn't have hidden what happened!

There is a really good Youtube (don't know how to do linkies

) regarding doggie warnings called "aggression and emotions" It shows a wonderful graph with colours from green (calming signals like yawning) to red (biting)

Robbie, Chip, and Ernie -- My three sons
We're from Hutchinson, Kansas USA The Great Plains!!

tracyd

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Mar 27 12 10:56 PM

I remember my parents telling me if I got bitten for teasing the dog it would be my own fault. I know where their loyalties lay

Marrca

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Posts: 182

Mar 29 12 2:52 PM

QUOTE

I have always told them that it is simply her enjoying the game. Am I right?

The only one who can know for sure is you & time. As kids are potentialy at risk I suggest you stop play altogether in their presence, alternativly just take chances & live in hope.

digger

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Mar 29 12 4:09 PM

It's impossible to say without seeing her in action.

Dogs can be very vocal when playing, so I'd tend to agree with you - she's playing. Be wary of taking action as soon as the perceived growling starts, as it's very easy to teach a dog NOT to growl - a dog who doesn't growl will give other signals that are usually ignored by humans, and this is where you get the 'she bit without warning' stories that are so sad.

The most important thing a dog can have, is bite inhibition. This means if a dog does 'snap' it will graze the skin rather than draw blood. To me, it's far more important that a dog has bite inhibition rather than the ability to take all sorts of human behaviour without reacting or warning.

RIP GJ - reunited with his 'boys' again 31-08-06

maria1968

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Apr 8 12 8:01 AM

Thanks for your responses. I've been checking on her growling and it seems to be one specific ball game...I do tend to tell the kids to stop and I don't tell Coco off either; I do think it's play though as she never growls at any other time. Kids are very good with her and give her the space she needs. She is a very chilled out contented dog and loves cuddles and the kids, but this game we play she does seem to enjoy and when I stop she brings the ball over to where ever I am at to play more...however, I shan't encourage it too much. You can never be too careful!

little lady

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Apr 8 12 8:13 AM

QUOTE (maria1968 @ April 08, 2012 08:01 am)

Thanks for your responses. I've been checking on her growling and it seems to be one specific ball game...I do tend to tell the kids to stop and I don't tell Coco off either; I do think it's play though as she never growls at any other time. Kids are very good with her and give her the space she needs. She is a very chilled out contented dog and loves cuddles and the kids, but this game we play she does seem to enjoy and when I stop she brings the ball over to where ever I am at to play more...however, I shan't encourage it too much. You can never be too careful!

Maybe it could be a game you play when the kid's are at school

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Growling - Really Stupid Question :o(

Growling - Really Stupid Question :o(